Brooke Erol has been an author, leadership coach and consultant for more than 20 years. She’s currently based in the US, but as you’ll hear in our interview, she’s worked with people and organizations around the world.
Brooke has been a big supporter of our message at Barry-Wehmiller for quite a while and had the opportunity to talk with Bob Chapman on a number of occasions and is determined to help continue his legacy.
She has a new book out: More Than a Paycheck: A Step by Step Guide to Clarity, Alignment and Purpose to Find and Do the Work You Love. You can get it from booksellers such as Amazon or Barnes and Noble and you can find out more about Brooke on her website.
One of the messages that you’ll definitely get from the book is in alignment with what Bob says at the beginning of each of our episodes: The way we lead impacts the way people live. You can listen to this episode through your favorite podcast provider or through the link in the header above.
Transcript
Brooke O. Erol: In 2013 or something, I went on a quest to find out companies who are not only making profit but really treating their people, their employees, in the best, most human way possible. And I said, I know they exist. I don't see a lot of them, but I'm going to make a list of them throughout the world. And let's find out. Let's start with the United States because that's where I am, obviously.
So, I think I started on a quest. It didn’t take too long to find out about Barry-Wehmiller. I had never heard the company name before, but I think some of the network that I have globally might have pointed something out or might have reposted something.
But it's during that search for the best companies in the world, the most human ones, that I found out about him. And as soon as I found out about him, of course, since that day, I became a huge fan because he's the exception, not the rule, unfortunately.
Every time I listened to him, everything I read about him, and then, of course, after I read Everybody Matters, his book, that is the only business book that made me cry, really. I read a lot of business books, but that was the one that stayed with me, and it's always in my office, and it's in my hand right now. I think that was the start of our relationship with Bob Chapman. I had him come and talk with me, and I had an interview years ago. Lots of things have happened since then.
Brent Stewart: How long have you been a coach? How long have you been working in the space of trying to make work better?
Brooke: I was probably a coach without doing coaching when I started working at IBM, even in my first few years. I don't know where it came from, but my inner voice started to ask me, why am I here? What am I doing? What's my impact? This is my title, but who am I contributing to with what I am doing? I was kind of questioning my purpose, and that got me out of that job. I worked there for 11 years, but after I started questioning that, I didn't think I was aligned, although it was a great job on paper.
Since then, I'm a coach inside of myself, obviously, but then I had to find a really amazing career coach who helped me align with who I am, really. Not on paper, not superficially, but really caring about what I love to do with my life. And so, I started my business in 2003. I did coaching for a long time until I said, OK, these people really know what they want to do after they work with me, but there are not enough companies that they're aligned with. What do I do then? That's when I switched to consultancy and my purposeful business company because I felt that I needed to work with leaders so that they create these great environments.
And that's why I probably found Bob Chapman, of course, because I wanted to help other leaders do the same. And for them to believe if they really care about their people, it does bring the business results that they want too. And because I felt like I have these people, individuals, but I think I need to go and help the companies too. And now I'm back to coaching again because I felt like I'm not moving the needle as much, and everything starts with the power of an individual at the end of the day. Organizations are not made up of buildings, but with people. So, I said, I think I want to go back to helping individuals, leaders, so that they liberate human potential. And that's where everything starts. So, I went on and off, and I still do some projects as a consultant too, but most of my work is coaching because you can make a big difference and have a big impact, I think.
Brent: When you were in your career at IBM, and you decided you were going to switch careers, was there an inflection moment where you decided this is needed in the world and this is what I need to do?
Brooke: One day, I was sitting down after work hours at my office thinking, like I said before, what am I doing here? How can I have a bigger impact on people? Am I having a positive impact on people's lives by doing what I do here? And I did try to find my purpose working there. So, I came up because nobody was talking about purpose at the time.
But when I found something, I felt better about the job, but I still questioned if I wanted to do this the rest of my life. And my answer was definitely no. So, I felt like I needed to get out. I knew this was not my place to be, but I still didn't have clear answers to what I needed to do.
So, I still went with my degree, doing sales and marketing in small and medium-sized businesses. In the meantime, I moved to the United States from Istanbul, Turkey. So, it was a huge, big change, and I had to start from scratch, basically. But then at some point, I got a career coach, and that was the biggest turning point for me because she asked me the most important questions. And then I said, oh my God, this is changing my life. I'm feeling so much more energized. I think this is what I want to do for others because by that time I was hearing a lot of people suffering at work, burned out at work, not having the best leaders. So, I felt like this was my calling, and I want to help those people the most because I can relate to them, feeling and going through the same journey myself.
Brent: Along the way, you started writing some books. Tell me about how that happened. How did you get into writing and what inspired you?
Brooke: Thank you. I think I was definitely always a writer, not an author, but since I was a child, that was my outlet, I think. It was kind of my therapy, a place where I can reflect. I always had my diaries and everything, but at some point, again, it comes up from really important reflective questions, which I always do.
So, I think in my 30s or maybe early 40s, I started asking myself, what would I regret if I were to die today? Probably there's no feeling of regret after you're gone, but I still wanted to ask that question. And it was always like, not writing your book, Brooke. Not writing your book would be your biggest regret. So, in 2015, and by that time I was starting something. There were no blogs at the time, but I was writing something and putting it on a website, and people were reading them already, like short articles, short things that I wanted to share with people, especially because I moved to another country and I had a whole different perspective on life now. So, people started telling me, why don't you put these into a book? Please, Brooke, just make this a book. So, they were already asking me to do that. So, finally, in 2015, I wrote my first book and published it, Create a Life You Love.
It’s mostly about life skills, but again, living a life that is aligned with who we are, overcoming some limiting beliefs so that we can liberate human potential, basically freeing ourselves from outdated paradigms. And that was my first book.
Then I co-authored two more books, more in the organizational leadership area, more about my purposeful business, creating purposeful businesses, just like Barry-Wehmiller, talking about leaders like Bob Chapman. I think he's in every book after 2015 that I wrote.
And then this one came about five, six years ago. I had a book in my mind, but I split it into two. One was more tailored toward organizations and leadership, and one was probably more toward individuals. And I said, that should not be the same book because the reader and the audience will be different. So, I started with the one that is tailored to individuals first, and it took me five, six years to finish it. But finally, it got published this year, More Than a Paycheck. So, it was in me for a long time because I'm a learner, and every time I learn something I want to share with others who are ready to listen because I feel like that changes lives and makes lives better. That's how I feel.
Brent: So, you said that you had the idea for, really two books. Tell me about the writing of More Than a Paycheck. What inspired that, and what experiences were you drawing from that inspired you to write it?
Brooke: I think it's all my clients and what I was seeing in the workplace that inspired me to write that, because, you know, Brent, a lot of people are unfortunately not happy at work; they are disengaged, they're burned out, they're stressed out, and that notion of having a big knot in your stomach on Sunday evenings and hating your Monday mornings was something that I questioned even in my early 20s working at IBM, because it felt so strange that we would spend so much time at work and not like what we do.
So, that did not sit well with me, and I questioned that a lot. But then when I started coaching and talking to very intelligent, smart, high-potential, talented people, I saw that a lot of their potential is going to waste, and they're doing everything right. The formula that most of us are given is to go to good schools, study hard, go to college, and hopefully maybe even have a graduate degree, and then go to a company, work hard and then promote. And that's going to make your life better or happier. But what I saw talking to clients was not the case. A lot of them were laid off; they didn't like what they did. Since I talked to so many over the years, I said, this is what I'm seeing. Let me write about this and what I learned from them and also what I have learned on my own by being a consultant and a coach, and from all the leaders like Bob Chapman, what is possible for all of us. So, let me make this like a workbook so that I have all those reflection questions in it so that they can do this on their own. It is the smallest investment they can make.
And I wanted to democratize what I'm already doing. If people cannot hire me for coaching, let them get the book and get some of the answers and do it on their own. It's almost like a do-it-yourself book, a DIY book, right? So, it has all the different paths we can take, all the things that might be stopping us on our path. Since I've been doing this for a long time, the writing, lots of things changed in the last few years with the layoffs. And then I wanted to have a chapter about that. And then I had some people who are retiring. How do you transition to retiring? And then how will you become even a better leader? Why is that part of this book too? Before I write the, hopefully, other book that's in me, it's really for people to take the power in their hands and make sure that they believe in themselves. Work, as the title suggests, is not only a means to an end, but something that makes them come alive, not hate their Mondays. So, I try to write all about that and how to achieve that in this book.
Brent: You know, it's funny. I've been working for Barry-Wehmiller for 12 years now and was fortunate enough to work closely with Bob through that entire time. We are all part of the same movement. We're all trying to move things in the same direction and toward a more human-centered workplace. And it almost seems like there was a pretty stark dividing line in the work around 2020 with the pandemic. A lot of things changed after that. You know, technology clearly ramped up in the last few years as well. So, a lot of things have changed in the workplace since 2020. You know, with this work that you've been doing for so long, what are the differences you have seen? You know, pre-2020 and post-2020, what are some of the differences that you've observed with the people that you've worked with?
Brooke: Thank you. Great question. And you're right, a lot of things have shifted, and I felt like we shifted in the right direction that we wanted to see. Because although companies probably did not really love that people were working from home, we were able to show to leaders who want to be mostly in control that people can work from home; they can be flexible; they can take time to take care of the family and their health and still create results, right? I think that was one of the best silver linings of COVID, which obviously was very painful for too many people. But at the same time, in terms of work, we showed that it is possible to work from home. It is possible to be more flexible and still create the results.
And I always believed that was possible because I know that not everybody is effective and productive, even if they stay in the office from 8 to 6 o'clock, right? We all have different rhythms, and now people were able to stay in rhythm, and they were able to be at home and take care of their child or somebody sick and still make work happen for them. So, I think that was the silver lining that changed it. And then some of the workplaces stayed with that. They stuck with that, right? They either had this hybrid or remote working still available to their employees. And as you know, some of them wanted everybody back in the office 100% of the time. And now there's a lot of resistance against that because people feel like, yes, we have shown you we can do work. As long as we bring the results, why do you care where we work?
And don't get me wrong, I definitely think that when we come together, there is a difference of being face-to-face. There's some other synergy that happens, but it doesn't have to be 100% of the time. And because I've done consultancy, I know for a fact that when I used to go and do my work, I was asking some of the executives, I said, like, how many hours do you think your people are effective and productive in the 8 hours that they stay here? Some, I'm not kidding, said only two hours. They knew that their people were not productive all the time that they spent in the office. So, now we had this chance to be more flexible, but I don't think it stuck really well, and we're still trying to turn back everything, sometimes for the right reasons, sometimes for, unfortunately, the wrong reasons.
So that was part of what happened with COVID, I think. But it also, if you look at the McKinsey research that was done during COVID, that was making me very happy that people were also starting to question, what's my purpose of working here? Because people are dying around me. And that's when we unfortunately go to these questions. I wish we did that every year at least: sit down and think what matters most to us. But we don't do it.
But that time also allowed people to think, oh, what is this job really? What's my purpose? Am I making an impact? Look at these health workers. It was so hard to watch them being the essential workers, but also it meant something. They saved lives. So, there was a lot of reflection that was happening, and some people did change their direction of work. So, I think those were the best and the silver linings. And I think we had a good momentum for a while with purpose, even with gender equality, because women now were sharing some of the home workload with their husbands. There were a lot of good conversations happening, but I can't see that is going on anymore. Maybe for a subset of them, but by 2025, I feel like we have reversed the direction again and we're back to where we were. Not for every company, like I said. A subset of the companies I think are going in the right direction. But I don't see the same momentum anymore, unfortunately.
Brent: There’s something with the onslaught of technology and the advancement of technology coinciding at that same time. I think Raj Sisodia said it once to me was that sometimes when there's a move forward, there's always some kind of reaction back to try to push back. There did seem to be a lot of good strides and a lot of companies really trying to figure out how they can value their people, maintain performance. But then it may be the advent of technology. Are you hearing some of that from the people that you're working with?
Brooke: Yes, especially of course now with AI, there's definitely a big disruption, and I don't think companies still know how to use it in the most effective way. But unfortunately, some of them use that as an excuse to lay off more people, but I'm also hearing some of them will be hired back. So, there's a lot of disruption and confusion around technology.
I started at IBM in the early 1990s, so I know how destructive technology can be, but also it can open up new opportunities, new roles, right? So, that's what I'm hoping for, but I feel like it is sometimes not used in the best way possible. Bringing the human potential alongside technology is the best way, I think, moving forward. But I think we're in big chaos right now. I don't feel like we're yet understanding how to use it in the best way possible. Some of the old technologies, yes, but not the new ones, especially AI.
It's very destructive now. I'm talking to a lot of people who got laid off with these big, big layoffs with big numbers. Now, they know their resumes are even searched by AI. With the new graduates, they are not hired because some of the new jobs are taken by AI capabilities. So, there are a lot of different issues that we're facing now that we didn't have a couple of years ago. So, there are the same things that have been happening since the 1990s, since the massive layoffs started to happen, but now there's another level of confusion and fear around AI in the last one or two years, I would say.
Brent: You know, one thing that you talk about in More Than a Paycheck is, and it's some of the conversations that you've had with people that you've worked with, you talk about high achievers who feel like they've done everything right, feeling stuck and unfulfilled. Where does that come from? Why has that been the case with a lot of people that you've talked to?
Brooke: Thank you for asking that. It's so important to me. What I've seen over the years, Brent, and I've been doing this for a while, I think when you go back to the history of work, it's important to understand that. So, like I was saying just a second ago, until the 1990s, jobs were more secure, more stable, right? After the Factory Age and after the Industrial Age hit, people were told to stop the farming, stop doing everything on your own, come to work 8 to 5, and then we're going to give you a paycheck every two weeks, every four weeks. So, you have stability. And at the end of your work life, we're also giving you some retirement money. So, you're set for life. Come and take this secure path with us.
Of course, people bought into that because there is some stability that they're going to have, and that's going to pay their mortgage. That's going to pay the college fees for their children, so that lasted for a while, until when you look at the history, until the 1990s, there were no big mass layoffs happening. Companies had unions; people had disability. But after 1990, something started shifting. And now, of course, it's a whole different level, which we all see and hear on the news. Like 10,000 people are laid off, 20,000, 30,000, and you can multiply by three because people are having their families go through this with them. And these people have done everything right. The formula was always go to college, get good grades, obviously, find the best job in the biggest companies if you can, those big brand names, a Fortune 500, if possible, then you're set for life.
But that's not working. And it's nobody's fault. Those people have done everything right, but they still unfortunately feel the shame. And that's what I was writing about a couple of days ago. My clients feel shame because they got laid off and I'm saying, you should lift that off because think about it: 10,000 more people got laid off with you from the same company. Obviously, you did not do something wrong. None of you did something wrong. It's just the times that we're living in. But now people are frustrated because what are they going to do?
They've done everything right, and they got laid off. And I asked people, OK, how long were you able to keep this last job? Two or three years, two or three years, one year, one and a half years. So, now that if they do find the next job, they don't feel secure about that either. OK, what am I going to do? One of my clients just the other day was saying, I can't do this anymore, Brooke. I just can't. I have a family. I want to bring food on the table. My relationship with my wife is not even the same. I even lost my confidence. What am I going to tell my adult children? What should they do?
I feel for them because most of them are correct. What are they going to do? What are we all going to do if we still want to plan our lives, if we still want to have a house, if we still want to have children? It is so hard that the formula is not working for too many people. That's what I meant by that.
Brent: So, taking these two things into account, or taking at least the two topics that we've just discussed into account, and we see this massive disruption happening right now, what do you see as moving us past all this and back on the path that we felt like we were making progress in in terms of bringing workplaces to the point where they realize that there are humans inside of them and becoming more advanced with that in mind?
Brooke: I think there are two paths. That's why I think I always switch between coaching and consultancy and doing both, because first of all, I love that you have an institute, right? The Chapman & Co. Leadership Institute. That's the one path, because if leaders understand that if their people are treated as human beings, as Bob Chapman used to say, somebody's precious child, it makes wonders. People want to be heard; they want to use their potential. People are not lazy. They just don't have the right work environments to flourish; that's it.
And Bob Chapman is one of the best examples by showing people that if people are treated well, they love to work. They love to come to work. We need more Bob Chapmans. So, the Leadership Institute is one of the best things we can keep on doing. That's the part of my consultancy work, because if we create those best cultures, that's going to make people flourish. And that's the way, because I know it's possible. We have enough examples in the world that show it's possible. With the publicly traded companies and the private companies, it's possible. That's the one path. That's why I broke this book into two parts, because that's the second one, right?
But the other one is what I'm trying to say with this book. We have agency. Just as we created this environment, we can also start a new path if we understand our own potential. And if we understand, we have created this new system that's not working for too many anymore. It's broken. Work is broken, so let's get our power back, which we already have. We don't have to listen to what's happening out there; we have to listen to our own potential and power. Let's get our power back to choose something aligned with who we are.
I always tell the four paths. If your career is not working for you, but you need another job, maybe in the same industry, go into that as powerfully as possible. The second one is maybe you need to change your career path because you're going to be aligned in some other path. Do that. The third one is start something on your own. I never used to talk about that unless somebody brought that in because I know how hard it is to start your business.
I don’t know if you read the statistics, Brent, but now they’re saying 49% of people who are already working have a side gig. And I'm not surprised because, first of all, they're either not making enough money to put food on the table or pay their mortgage and pay the bills. But the second part is they don't trust the job that they have, the company that they're working for, because they're not working for Barry-Wehmiller or a company like that.
And they feel like they might be out of work because they see the layoffs every single day. So, they want to get some control in their life. And I get that. And that's why I got to be an entrepreneur too. That wasn't my dream. I just got laid off twice. And I felt like, OK, now I want to do something I believe in.
I just want to make sure I'm living with my values, with my purpose, and I'm going to give this a try. Also, I don't trust that I'm going to have the same job, and how am I going to pay my bills? I don't have money lying around. And I think that the third path is something that a lot of people are considering.
And I am rooting for them now. Not that everybody probably will choose that path, but I understand where they're coming from. And just reminding everyone that before the Industrial Age, we were all solopreneurs. We had to think about what we're good at.
Am I going to be a baker? Am I going to be a carpenter? Am I going to be a farmer? We have to think that way, so I'm telling people that I invite you to think the same way: What are your best talents and skills that you want to use? Is there anything you can start as a side gig? And maybe it's going to become a business one day. I want people to explore every path, not only one path that we were always given to be successful, because that's not working for everyone anymore.
Brent: So, you wrote this book, and it's out now. If you were handing it to somebody, what would you want them to take from it? How do you want them to feel after reading your book?
Brooke: I think I'm getting those reviews, which makes me so happy, obviously, because books always belong to the readers. If you're an author like me, you're not even breaking even with your cost. So, this is for people, like I said, that cannot come and get coaching from me, but for $19 or less, they can do all the reflection questions to figure out how to find their clarity, their alignment and purpose, like the book subtitle says: how to find and do the work they love.
And that doesn't mean you are gonna drop everything and just do anything that your heart belongs to. It means you can have two paths: the short-term and the long-term goal. Do whatever you can to make money, obviously, but do not give up on what really makes you come alive.
So, they will find the answer to these questions if they read my book, because all the questions that I go through with my clients are in there. If they take the time to reflect, to have some me-time and answer those questions, there's going to be more clarity and alignment and some meaning that they can find. That's my biggest purpose with this book. And getting to understand you have agency in this. We believed through our education that, OK, even I studied business. They told me how to become a really good employer or a manager. But we can be in control of our lives, and we can be like in the mindset of a solopreneur. That's what I hope for people to get out of this book.