Here’s something our CEO Bob Chapman recently wrote in a post on this blog:
The people our leaders lead, they do not “report to” that leader, they are within that leader’s span of care. Just that simple deviation from the normal way of phrasing things completely changes the dynamic of the relationship. Per a Google search, the literal definition of “report to” someone is “to work under the supervision of or take instructions from someone who is in a higher position. It implies a hierarchical relationship where the person reporting is accountable to the individual they report to.”
But when you talk about being within a leader’s span of care, it helps to change the way leaders think. It suggests the sense of responsibility a leader should feel to those they lead. Our children do not “report to” us. Our spouses certainly don’t. When we invite someone to join our team, we are bestowed with the awesome responsibility to provide the care and inspiration and support that that precious human being needs to become everything he or she was meant to be.
As Bob says here, just a simple phrase like “span of care” can change our perspective as a leader. And this takes us to our conversation today.
Chapman & Co. Leadership Institute is Barry-Wehmiller's consulting arm that specializes in helping other organizations unleash the extraordinary in their businesses and their people. They do this by helping those organizations identify, develop, and equip their leaders.
On this podcast, Ben Huebner, a Senior Consultant at Chapman & Co. Leadership Institute is going to talk to a couple of leaders from Metlife, who I’m sure you’ve heard of. Since 1868, MetLife has been of the world’s leading financial services companies, providing insurance, annuities, employee benefits and asset management to individuals and institutions around the world.
Ben’s conversation is with Anna Lavery, Vice President, Market Enablement and Andrea Douglas, Vice President, Regional Business Service & Implementation. The three talk about the work Chapman & Co has done with Metlife for a few years now, mainly with what Chapman & Co calls Truly Human Service and Truly Human Language. Notably, you’ll hear the impact using the phrase “span of care” has made in their organization.
Transcript
Ben: So real quickly, could you guys introduce yourselves and the role that you play within the larger MetLife organization? Maybe we'll start with you, Anna.
Anna: Sure. So, I head up the market enablement team. The way that I describe our team is that MetLife is a large company with incredible resources, expertise, tools, and it is our responsibility to put them in the hands of our market facing roles within our group benefits organization. So, we do that through training, development, technology solutions, recognition education, so a variety of different areas of focus, and that's the team.
Ben: Great. And then, Andrea?
Andrea: Yeah, I'll jump in. So, Andrea Douglas, I lead what we call our regional business service and implementation team. Regional business at MetLife is defined as support that we provide for employers that have between two employees and 5,000 employees. So, a pretty broad base of customers that we support. My team, the easiest way to describe it, basically does everything with our customers from the time they first become a customer. So, after they decide to work with MetLife for the benefits, we get them all set up in our systems, and then we maintain the relationship with the customers from an account management standpoint through the lifecycle of the relationship. So, we're a pretty big team, close to a thousand people, spread all over the country and support over 30,000 customers.
Ben: Great. Yeah, sounds like quite a large impact that you guys have.
Andrea: Definitely.
Ben: So, real quickly, how would you describe the culture of MetLife and maybe even more specifically, the culture that you have internally as well as you have externally when you're interacting with customers, both brokers and end use customers?
Andrea: I would say, first of all, I think just across MetLife, there's definitely a culture of pride. I think we all feel very proud to work for a company that's been around for over 150 years. We operate globally and really provide a really important service for the customers and markets that we support. So, we definitely kind of wear that pride, I think both internally and externally. Specific to our organization, we support, again, as I said, a large base of different types of employers. So, from really, really, really small companies that only have a couple of employees up to companies with 5,000 employees, which obviously there's companies bigger than that, but obviously a 4,000-employee company is very large. So, we think we feel proud of not only the overall support we offer to those customers and to their employees, but our ability to be flexible. And I think there's a general sense of I'm going to do whatever it takes to resolve an issue on behalf of whomever it is we are working on an issue for. Sometimes that we might trip over each other every now and then when that happens, which is, and part of what I think we were able to navigate through with truly human, but I think there's an overall sense of I'm going to do whatever it takes to resolve issues on behalf of our customers and really having this kind of customer care mentality.
Anna: I agree with all of that, Andrea. And I would add, I think it's a very collegial culture, you have people that have been, we have a lot of tenure at MetLife, so I think when people join the organization, if you stay for a year and a half, you often stay for 20 and it very much has a family atmosphere. I think there's also a real focus on integrity when you look at feedback. I think everyone really feels connected to our purpose, the purpose of MetLife and the work that we do. And there's the high level of integrity and respect for that work across the team. But I would also say it is a very old company. And so, some of the ways in behaviors and norms can be not as forward thinking as we'd like to think we are at times. But I think that that is also part of our culture. There's a very much like we've always done it this way, and that's sometimes the way we approach work, too. And that's shifting, but there's things that come with being a very large, very old company.
Andrea: Yeah, no, that's a great point. There's a tremendous benefit to being a really large, diverse, old company, but then it can be a little bit challenging to navigate the inertia of we want to be able to be at the forefront and doing things differently, but we're a pretty big, old behemoth. Even with the best intentions, it can sometimes be difficult to move as far and as fast as we want to.
Ben: Yeah. And I think that dovetails a little bit into my next question I want to ask, and maybe, Anna, if you want to kick this one off, but MetLife has really been on this truly human service and truly human language journey for several years, for several years at this point. Can you describe a little bit, maybe what was the initial sort of problem statement or what you were trying to achieve to somebody who's unfamiliar with insurance? Explain it to me like I'm eight. What was the initial ask and what really made you realize that, hey, maybe this is something we need some outside help with?
Anna: And I'll give some initial context and then Andrea, please jump in. So, when we started, we actually started on this focus around creating a talent ecosystem that supported our associates, our customers and our business. And we looked at where did we have opportunity? And I think Andrea and I, within a few years, stepped into roles supporting the service team a couple of years, and it was both in a new capacity and the team had previously been sitting in a more operations-type function. And so, a lot of the work was seen as production, how many widgets can you produce, which that is not the role that this team plays. And so, we started to work together and really identified there was a need to elevate our game as far as how we were facing off in a human way to our customers. And as we'd mentioned, we have a lot of technology that needs a lot of investment to be modern.
And so, our associates, this team is kind of the in-between between our old technology and the experience that our customers are having. And so, our ability to really provide an exceptional level of service and experience for them, we needed to raise that game there. And so that was, I think, when we had this initial scope of work, I reached out to Sarah because we'd started on some other smaller projects and just saw that Chapman had a view on culture that aligned with where we wanted to go. And so, just the partnership that I thought could be really special. And it has been. I don't know, Andrea, what else you would add there.
Andrea: Yeah, I actually, I distinctly remember the first set of conversations that Anna and I had as we were thinking about what we needed to do different. And I initially described it as we do a bunch of training on process and how to move widgets from here to there, as Anna said. I felt like we were missing what I described as the soft skill stuff that ultimately I thought is what we needed to do to raise our game and further differentiate ourselves in the market. So, I remember our conversations were around how do we create a program that is focused on soft skill development that is not just a once and done because we train our team on so many things all day every day, and I wanted to make sure that this felt very different. And so, Anna brought in the idea of or brought forward the idea of engaging with Chapman.
And we put a lot of energy in the early days about how are we going to make this feel different than just a training class? And really thought it was important that it became a part of our nomenclature that across all a thousand people on our team that when you said truly human, that everyone knew what that meant. And I knew that meant not only that the content itself needed to be different to start to shift the culture and the way we worked, but the way we delivered it needed to be different. And I think I say check, check across the board.
Ben: And I think that dovetails into my next question really well of what does truly human service or truly human mean to you all? And what is the importance of embedding that language to the work that you're doing, that broader cultural shift that you're saying that you're trying to make?
Andrea: Yeah, I mean I think I'll just jump in to start with, I mentioned earlier how large our team is and how many customers we support. And so, it can be easy to fall into a very transactional way of interacting, both externally and internally. And so, this idea of truly human just breaking it and reminding all of us because even with the best of intentions, we are transacting through email, we're getting on calls, and it can feel very production-focused. So, the idea that that email is actually tied back to a person who is sitting at home or in their office trying to do something on behalf of their employees, that there is a person on the other end of that interaction. And it seems basic, but if you don't force it, it's not a part of the DNA and how we work. So, at the very, very kind of foundation of the idea that we are all human first and what that means in terms of how you interact and engage with one another.
I will say, when we initially set out on this, I was focused on more of the external interaction. How do we treat our external partners, customers in the way that we think is necessary? And a huge benefit was also about how we are interacting internally. That whole idea of we're all truly human internally, I mean the better that we support and work with each other internally only helps us support our customers better externally. That wasn't a part of my initial calculus of what we needed to address, but I would say it has been just as important, so much so that our team has actually said we would really benefit from teams outside of our team participating in truly human because they've seen the benefit of how it's helped them work together and are thinking about other people that they work with that they think could benefit from it.
And then the last thing that I would say is it has helped I think our leadership team think about how they are supporting their team and this idea of care that we've really kind of embedded through everything, not just care for our customers, not just care for your peers, but as a leader, my role in caring and when I heard the first time I heard a leader say, rather than say the people that report to me, they said, the people in my span of care, I was like, we nailed it. We've made it a part of their DNA. But I will say we are going to have to continue to nurture it because again, we've put a lot of energy over the last few years to make it as a part of how we work. And if we set it and forget it from here, we run the risk of reverting back.
Anna: It's a team sport. The work that the team does is complex and it requires a lot of different parties within MetLife and that shared nomenclature and shared view of what truly human service means has helped us deliver in a different way.
Andrea: Maybe one thing if I could add that I didn't hit on quite as much is, Ben, is I know we did put a lot of energy into being really specific about the language that we use and the words that we use and knowing that words have power and meaning and that it could be in a positive way or in a negative way if you're not careful with it. And so, we could unintentionally say something or write something that doesn't land in the way we are intending it to. And we like, probably many companies, have a lot of internal jargon that's kind of a second language.
And unfortunately, sometimes that jargon gets exposed externally. And again, thinking about a smaller company that's like a bake shop when we're providing life insurance benefits to them, they don't understand insurance jargon, let alone MetLife's internal acronyms. And so, we had to really do a lot of workshopping to help our teams think about how to dial that back and relay a message in a way that the recipient can understand it. And the same goes for the internal dialogue too, but I think what I've been happy about is that we did it in a way that wasn't prescriptive. We didn't say like say this, don't say this, right? Because that's not sustainable. We helped our team think about how they should approach it differently so that they could make it their own. And it's still going to be an ongoing journey, but I think that was a really important part of the work that we did.
Ben: I think the language and even truly human service itself, it's hopefully, and I think you said this, hopefully it's felt like more of a mindset as opposed to a prescriptive play pattern. Because I think the concern would be the second you write out that play pattern, it's already out of date.
Andrea: Right. But it gives us the benefit of putting all this under what we call truly human. It gives us a common language for people to share feedback with one another, for people to give advice and recommendations. Everyone, we say truly human now, I think people understand what we're talking about and understand how they need to then apply that to the work that they're doing.
Ben: And I think you started to touch on it a little bit, but I would love to know even a little bit more, I mean, you're both leaders at MetLife when you think about this work and the context of your own leadership journey, would love to know how you think this fits in and really how has this evolved over your time at MetLife? I actually think I heard you earlier share you used to think this was all external, but one of the biggest impact was actually the internal benefits of the truly human work.
Anna: I mean, I think that concept of, and I know when we first started the conversations with Chapman and that you always use the language in my span of care, and it's certainly I think personally how I viewed my role as a leader, but I also really only viewed it for my direct team. And I think this has helped me see you have much larger impact and the associates that are in your span of care, it's a broad brush and everything you do to come with that mindset and perspective and intention changes the way it feels to people that you work with. So, I think that's just one of the highlights of the work we've done together for me.
Andrea: I completely agree with that. I love the span of care language because it completely changes the way you think about your role as a leader and why we're here. The other thing that I would say, though, maybe a little bit of a different angle or way of looking at it is driving this type of culture shift, especially with the large organization. It's moving really, really fast. It's operating in an old environment as Anna talked about earlier. It's not easy and it will not happen overnight. And so, the work and planning that went into being very, very deliberate about how we deployed it to make it sticky. And it's not that we did everything perfectly, but I'm proud of the fact that we recognized early on that we wanted this to feel and be different and we put the energy into making sure that happened.
And so, it makes me think about, as a leader, other types of strategies or things that I might want to deploy across the team. And some things are intended to be kind of quick hit. We're in and out, we're making this change and we move on. And others warrant probably much, much, much more energy from a change management standpoint. I'm proud of the energy that we put into this and it has made me think as a leader, are there other places where we're deploying new strategies, et cetera, that we need to have a similar kind of robust plan to drive change?
Ben: Yeah, I think in both of your answers you sort of highlighted both the benefit of this, but also potentially the challenge of actually this is: A. There’s lot more people in my span of care. B. To truly make the initiatives truly human, it does take more work to maybe get it there, but it's for ultimately a better impact.
Anna: It's definitely a journey and I think we're still on it. I think I've had over the years opportunities to work on a number of change and culture initiatives. And this feels very different in that it's really a foundational building block and it's not like, OK, let's just keep repeating this and make sure everybody hears it, so if someone new comes in, let's make sure they get this download. It's an evolution, and you can see the future and where we need to go and how we can continue to make improvements in ways that some of the work I've done in the past has not felt that way.
Ben: And we started to talk a little bit about results, but what's the impact you've seen as far as the metrics that you all are looking at on this work? And maybe not just metrics, but what in the day-to-day work and team relationships, have you seen shift, change over time with doing the truly human service work?
Andrea: Yeah, I mean I would say we definitely have seen some improvement in some of our kind of traditional metrics that we track with customer loyalty, et cetera. So, we definitely have seen some positive momentum in that over the last couple of years. We've obviously done other things. It's been kind of a combination of a lot of different things, but I would say this has been a pretty important part of that. So, as Anna said, though, we're still on a journey. We have high expectations of ourselves and a high bar, and that bar maybe felt high in 2024, and it is going to be higher in 2025. So, we're never going to be, I would say satisfied. We're always going to thinking about the next thing we need to do. But had we not been as deliberate on this really, really important development for our teams, I'm not sure if we would've seen all of the progress that we've seen over the last couple of years.
It was an important, I would say, kind of force multiplier with other work that we were doing. And I would say, maybe a little bit harder to measure, but the energy and engagement in the team is palpable. And I'm seeing more focus on let's rally around our purpose, not only the purpose for MetLife, but recognizing that the people that we support are humans and how do we help support them to, right, it’s not just a transaction. So, there is a more, I would say, palpable energy and excitement around I'm not just working through a series of emails and phone calls every day that didn't exist a couple of years ago. And again, there's obviously a lot of things happening in the organization that help contribute to that. But I would say this culture shift around truly human has been an integral part of it.
Anna: And I would highlight I think really significant progress, I think in some of the metrics that are critical to our business, we've had over a 10-point improvement in attrition. Regional business service is now a place people want to come and be a part of the work that's happening. And that was one of the goals. We wanted this to be an end game for folks and where they were striving to be a part of the work. And also, on the NPS scores, double digit increase there as well from customers and brokers on the experience that they're having with this team specifically. So, really key metrics. We've moved the dial very significantly with this and a lot of other work that the team has done, but I think this has helped to provide the language and the mindset that empowered everything else.
Ben: And I think those metrics highlight really a benefit we said earlier of some of the external metrics, but attrition, that's an internal metric, but obviously has external huge external effects.
Andrea: Absolutely.
Ben: And so, in taking care of the team, you are taking care of the customer, and it's this great symbiotic relationship.
Anna: They're really complex roles that take years truly to become expert in. So, attrition has a huge impact on our ability to deliver.
Andrea: Attrition and tenure. It's really important. I think they’re one and the same.
Ben: Yeah. Can you share a moment when you realized this work was really making a difference? What did that look like or maybe sound like when you sort of had that moment?
Andrea: Yeah, I think I said it earlier, it was when one of the leaders where we were just having a conversation about this person's team and they just kind of said, well, these people, they used the phrase span of care and the way they were talking about the things that they needed to do was very different than how we've talked before. And I would say it's less about using that phrase, you can just swap the phrase, it's less about that. But to me it signified that they were thinking about their role as a leader differently. And again, what got me excited about that was not only that they were thinking about their role differently as a leader, that I didn't fully appreciate the impact of this truly human work was going to have internally. I was almost exclusively focused on the external impact. But the reality is, as Anna said earlier, the way our teams feel about where they're working, who they're working with, the circle of people around them, it has a material impact on their satisfaction and their job, their desire to stay.
And then the longer they say, the more experienced they become, and it all has this kind of snowball effect to how we can deliver externally. And I underestimated the impact that the internal focus was going to have. So, the first time, and it wasn't very long in the journey, I mean it Qa within that first year, and it just kind of rattled off their tongue like all of our other internal language does. And that's when I thought, okay, we're onto something here and it's sticking and we have to keep going. Then I had more energy than ever to not take our foot off the gas.
Anna: And I think I would, obviously, we're changing processes all the time. We need to continually train our teams technically on what they need to do differently. And in conversations with subject matter experts, individuals on Andrea's team that are doing the job, the way that they bring the information and articulate how to share it has a different tone and feel. And you see that all the time. So it's not like, let's use this acronym in our training to describe how we do this. It's like, no, let's think about how they need to communicate this externally for it to feel differently for our customer, and that that's the way we now communicate our training. It's just like you see that in how we recognize people, and I think an internal push to change our recognition to highlight behaviors that are truly human. So not, obviously we have success principles that are MetLife’s, but there's an added level to that around in these roles and the truly human touch. And we've had a shift to really understand who does this really well and make sure that there's a spotlight on them.
Ben: Yeah, it sounds like it's been a great tool to sort of amplify even the things that you would think it's not involved in, it's not sitting in that, but it is shifting people's mindsets on other initiatives to potentially even maximize those even more.
Andrea: And maybe I'll just add too, I think our team really appreciate us basically saying not only can you spend the time focusing on this, it's a critical part of your role. And many of them, they're in these roles because they want to be of service to people. That's what they want to do. And if you find or if you feel like the day-to-day is too transactional, that might not be as satisfying for them. And there's always going to be, there's a transactional reality to almost every job that you ‘re in, so that doesn't go away. But us making a statement that these kind of behavior changes and the way that we interact with each other and language that is equally as important to all the process and transactional things that you do. I think it clarified for them the role that they play in the organization in a really positive way.
Ben: Yeah. Great. Now, thinking back to your past selves probably about three years ago, if you could go back to the beginning of this journey, what would you do differently and maybe what advice would you give to another leader who's sitting in that same spot you were three years ago and just starting some similar initiative?
Anna: I felt initially that what we were going for was really aspirational. I don't know that I thought it was realistic, and so I can be fairly cynical at times. And so, it was like, okay, I'm going to pitch this sounds great, see what progress we could make. And it seemed like that was a very shiny star that we may never reach. And so, I think maybe I would've had more optimism from the beginning because I really do think it's been powerful and effective and is something I would've told myself drop some of the cynicism I think. And advice that I would have, I think it's that you not to be too narrow on work like this, a mindset shift requires all parties and so would've been, I think even more broad in what we were trying to tackle from the beginning if I had really understood the impact.
Andrea: I definitely agree with that. It's kind of somewhat similar, but I've talked a little bit about how we set out to make sure that what we did felt very different, and we were really deliberate about with Anna's team, about how we deployed it. We found fun ways to embed it into all of our communications and really leaned in really heavily on talking about it in a number of different forms, finding ways to recognize people, et cetera, et cetera. In hindsight, I was kind of only focused on that first year, even though I knew that chances are we're going to have to do this ongoing in some way year after year. And maybe it's to some extent where Anna's head was like, I don't know what's going to happen after a year. We'll kind of see. Let's just get through this first year and roll with it.
And I think we still got to the right place in year two, but I think if an advice for leaders doing things like this in the future, if you really are embarking on what will be a major strategic change or culture shift, you do have to plan for the long term kind of in parallel to the short term. Like I said, I think we still landed in the right place, but I don't remember really having conversations like let's think about what we want this to look like in year two and make sure what we're doing in year one makes sense. I was just like, let's just get through year one and hopefully it works. So, like I said, I think we still ended up okay in the right place, but I'm not sure if we would've made different decisions or not. But strategic change takes more than just one year, and I think you're better served at the front end, making sure you're clear on that longer term North Star as you're building your shorter term plans.
Ben: Just building off of that, I would love to know what's next. How do you build on what you've achieved so far, do you think?
Anna: I'm looking forward to, obviously we have a session with all of the market leadership within group benefits at MetLife next week, and I think sharing some of this approach mindset shift with an even broader group of leaders, this is not something we've necessarily embedded within our sales teams, and I see that as a real opportunity. So that's something I'm really excited about. I think this evolution needs to move from service to distribution so that that's a more powerful partnership.
Andrea: That's actually where I was exactly where I was going to go, and I mentioned it a little bit earlier that I think I know our found so much benefit from it. I mean there was countless numbers of people that asked the question, when can this be available to other internal partners that we work with? Both a combination of them participating in similar training and workshops, but also the benefit of potentially doing these types of things together. We work with a really diverse internal cross-functional team to deliver for the marketplace, and we've seen so much benefit from our team participating in this power of, again, kind of a force multiplier of others that are a part of that overall account team participating I think will be hugely impactful. And that's also probably not going to be a one-year journey at this point, going to take multiple years for that too, but I'm really excited.
Similar to Anna about the opportunity to see us expand us beyond just the 900 or so folks that are in my organization. The other thing that I'm excited about that's really already happening, but I think will build momentum is as we bring on new teammates, having this as a part of our onboarding journey, and obviously we want to continue doing things with the existing team, but when we're hiring new folks into our organization, if this is a part of their onboarding process, then it's kind of automatically embedded into how they think and how they operate. And so, I'm excited about how that's going to kind of snowball in itself over the upcoming years as we bring more people into the organization.
Ben: How do you further galvanize this to truly be part of the MetLife culture, so it doesn't become, as we sort of said earlier, one of those initiatives that we just have a drumbeat for a while and then eventually we forget about it and go back to our ways? Beyond the immediate team, how would you say this work has influenced relationships with clients as well as other stakeholders?
Andrea: Yeah, I think we have touched on it a little bit, but in terms of our clients and other stakeholders, I would say externally and the group insurance market, many employers work with insurance brokers to help them with their benefit plans. So, we engage with brokers quite a bit as well. What we hear from customers and brokers, they recognize that a lot of what we do is complicated and certainly they want quick responses. They want us to be timely, but they also know that what we do is complicated. And so, for our team to be positioned to acknowledge issues or feedback in a way that the market feels like, all right, I know MetLife's on it, I know they have it, right, I understand this is complicated. Also, they communicated with me in a way that I understand what the next steps are. We didn't use a whole bunch of insurance jargon and internal acronyms.
They don't need to hear all that, but we can care for them in a different way. And that's what customers, again, going back to the idea of truly human, at the heart of truly human, the people that we are working with are HR administrators for companies managing benefits for their employees, and they get a call from an employee who has a concern about a disability claim, and they come to MetLife, and if it's a disability benefit, that's their income. At the end of all of the chain of emails, there's a person who for one reason or another has to be out of work and MetLife is helping to supplement their income. And all that HR administrator needs to know is if something isn't working the way it should, or they have a question or concern, that someone at MetLife is going to care for them. And we're starting to see that bear fruit. We're seeing it in some of the NPS outcomes. It's completely changing the way we're interacting with our customers, and there's a lot of process and technology and a whole lot of other things that we have to do to also care for our customers. But the way in which we're talking externally, I think is starting to bear fruit based on the feedback that we're hearing.
Anna: So, I think from my perspective, I think there's a lot of other areas within MetLife when I think of my other client groups that can benefit from this perspective. And so, kind of bringing this work to our national accounts organization that is focused on employers that are 5,000 and above our largest customers, just seeing the value and the ability to have an impact in other areas and other client groups that I support, I see as real opportunity, and I know we're already in there with many of them, so it's exciting.
Ben: But yeah, it does sound like there's opportunity not even only to go deeper and continue this work within regional business, but also who else within MetLife or that MetLife touches can we continue to bring this to?
Anna: I think back when we first started, I first started the service talent work, Andrea. And I had a conversation with the head of our business who's kind of like, we need something different with our service talent than we've had in the past. And we'd like some work initiated to change culture. And it evolved into many different work strains, but I think this has been this mindset. The culture really gave us a path for everything else, and I'm just really grateful that we've found this partnership and have leaders like Andrea who's so invested and passionate about creating this experience. So that's something I'd reflect on as well.
Ben: Yeah, well, I can tell you we're honored to be on this journey with you all and really think it's just the impact is both great, and we expected that, but even ourselves included, sort of surprised at just the ripple effects from it.
Andrea: And maybe one thing I will add, I'd be remiss if I didn't comment on the really consistently, overwhelmingly positive feedback we heard from our teams about the actual delivery of all of the content. And that's a huge kudos to the Chapman team. I mean, it was pretty much every session that we had comments about the facilitation. And so, I think the combination of the content itself, the way the sessions themselves were actually led and facilitated, that felt very engaging. I mean, people, and these weren't like quick 30-minute, 60-minute sessions, right? In some cases, we were asking people to really carve out a material amount of their time in their day, which as you can imagine, was not met with open arms necessarily from everyone. We were going like just trust us, and this is important. And I mean, it was almost unanimous, which when an organization as big as ours is hard to come by, but it was such a good use of their time, the time went by quickly, the facilitation was great. So, the combination of how the sessions went coupled with just what the content itself and then the way we wrapped it into very, very deliberate communication cascades and fun videos and the recognition, and I think that was a trifecta of a lot of things that worked really, really well together that has made this so impactful.